I hope I can say what I want to say about this without wearing you guys out.

One of the things so vastly different about Poetry Circle is that the editors embrace almost all types of writing, forms, lack of form, punctuation, lack of, etc.  But there's one thing that kinda bothers me.  And please, please don't think I'm complaining, whining, or criticizing.  I'd just like to open a window regarding abstract poetry.

I'm sure most of you don't even realize it, but the abstract just doesn't go over well here.  And I know there are good reasons.  Abstractions can be so well ... distracting and boring.  But there are some awesome, classical poets who knew how to write in the abstract in beautiful ways.

I certainly don't know how to, but I learned very quickly here (which was a very good thing for me, by the way) that if I didn't learn how to write poetry that touches the ground there was no way I would get any help from most of you here.  And I'm glad it turned out that way because I was way way way too abstract for the common man, and still slip off that way sometimes.

Here's my point though.  If we embrace all types of poetry, can we not find someway to help writers with a penchant for the abstract?  Gabriella comes to mind (and I hope you see this Gabby).  And there are a few other writers who just end up leaving because what they write leans away from the norm here, and toward the abstract.  What would/would've happened if someone had taken the time to meet them on their terms and help out? 

I do understand that sometimes people leave because they don't want the advice we offer--and that's too bad.  But I'm just wondering if sometimes, as a whole, we can be too narrow-minded.

I also understand this is a forum for contemporary poets and right now the 'abstract' is not the rage, but neither are some of the other things we so openly embrace.

I remember when Stirling posted his first 'computer' poem.  I thought, o my, now I think this is pretty cool, but I wonder ....  and lo and behold we loved it and many of us tried it in our own way.

Now, what I would like to do is back up all this jabber with some meat and bones.  Keepin' it real ya know?  I'll check out some poets who are well known for writing in the abstract, just to see what I come up with.

Until then, I'd love to know what you think, if you have time to comment.

cheryl

Nought wrong with writing of abstracts, Cheryl, it's how it's to be done. As you say, abstracts in themselves become boring, so it's only, I suggest, by the use of the concrete can they be made original and interesting.

Cheers

,ilner

Yeah, and I guess that's what those of us who love abstract art need to learn to do.  It's much easier to just brush off criticism as 'not being understood', when what we/I /we whoevah cares/ needs to do, is just bite the bullet, quit being so prideful, and learn to write.

Thanks for your comment.
cheryl

Maybe I don't appreciate the genre, or really understand it, but I think of so many here as being abstract, that are received well. Thinking of our Front Page poems lately, John's "Athenian Grace" seems very abstract to me. My "Jesus Chair" poem before that, too. Or are poems like that not really? Tom

Well, Tom, I don't know.  That's my point, I guess.  I don't think I know enough about the style to answer your question, but I want to learn.  And I know that what I keep hearing over and over again is that writers want to be appreciated because they write the way they write, not because they know how to please an audience.

Sometimes I read poetry that sounds really lovely, the words are awesome, the meter, but I have no idea what the poet is talking about.

Now, am I wrong or is there something right about that kind of poetry or not?

I just finished posting a little ditty in submit about different poets and what they've given us.  William Blake was and still is known as a lunatic.  But I actually understand and like much of his writing.  He opposed Milton righteously and took sides with Satan, that sort of thing.  His wife is said to have told someone that she and her husband Blake rarely talked because, as she put it, "Mr. Blake and I seldom converse.  He is always in Paradise".

I suppose he was so unearthly minded he was no earthly good.

cheryl

YES!  Sl, the exact same thought and theory are in both.

Sometimes only the artist knows for sure.

You know, kinda like the hairdresser?

Thanks for mentioning this,
cheryl

Well ..... there are many versions of what is abstract.....and of course the hairdresser is usually a messenger of wisdom



this definition i abstracted from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figurative_art

Painting and sculpture can therefore be divided into the categories of figurative, representational and abstract,
although, strictly speaking, abstract art is derived (or abstracted) from a figurative or other natural source.

However, the term is sometimes used as a synonym for non-representational art and non-objective art,
 i.e. art which has no derivation from figures or objects.

I think if the poetry is awesome to read, it's still awesome whether readers can put their finger on the meaning or not.
I give props to authors who just write the way they write; but if it's a crumby read, what can I say? It's a crumby read.
It's like lovers: The best do exactly as they please, and we love it. The worst do exactly as they please, and we don't!

Well, ok, I agree, of course, but should we try to help somehow?

I mean it's easy to turn your head from someone who doesn't want your help.  They just think they do.  But what about writers that post and post and post, and it's really boring because it makes no sense, but maybe somewhere in there is a gem or two?

Maybe I have too much time on my hands.

All I know is that if the editors here hadn't taken the time with me that you did, and not that I'm 'the shit' or 'all that' by any means, but I'd still be writing poetry that even I didn't understand.  I just thought it sounded lofty and lovely.  But really, I was so frustrated, getting nowhere, reading stuff that was so good and had no idea where to start.

It was in the little bitty tiny steps, ya know?

Ok, I'm done.

Did I make sense?

cheryl

Last night I started my little hunt in the woods for literary abstractions.  Found some awesome stuff.  (Ferlinghetti (sp?) is a very funny man.  Wish I'd met him sooner.)

Anyway, I think most of you will love it, and maybe even be enlightened.  So, I'm changing the title to this thread so as not to waste room beginning another one, but I'll be posting poems, videos, and audios here on and off until I feel I've completed my mission -- which is to both entertain and enlighten me and you.

Comments, notices, rejection slips, etc. will be greatly appreciated.

Lois Lane

well said, sir.  well said.

tiko

---

Hi Tiko, and welcome back from wherever you've been. Or maybe it's me who's been gone. Anyway, seems like it's been awhile since we've had a visit. Actually, regarding Tom's very sexy comment above, I understood the first part, and understood the last part, each separately, but not together. Wonder why that is? Maybe I've forgotten how to do 'exactly as' I 'please', but hell, I know I'm always the best I can be. ; )

---

OK, so I best keep my mind on the task at hand. So hard to stay focused these days, you know? Too much time off work.

The following discovery regarding the abstract genre is by far the most fun for me, and the most surprising. I wasn't aware the Beat generation used so much of the abstract in both writing and performance. I won't say anymore about this vid except to advise you the jazz may hurt your ears a bit at first, but hang in there. And if you really get a hankering, there are six more parts. This is just the first one.

A Coney Island of the Mind, Part One:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KmdoivCNuY

---

In print, for those with tender ears:

http://www.amazon.com/reader/0811200418?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib%5Fdp%5Fpt#reader

---

Allow me to post an abstract poem that blows me away .

http://www.poetsphere.org/index.php?showtopic=335

I look at abstract poetry, or any abstract art
as removing from the subject in the physical; attempting
concrete expression in the spiritual, that is, the impact of the subject matter
had on the feelings of the artist.

It's a melange of spice.

The poem that I posted -- I don't know what she's on about,
but I know what she's on about.

Simile and metaphor is perhaps the first layer of abstraction


Just my two cents.

Cheryl,

For me, Tom's comments put together are about participation.  It's not about the best lover or the worst lover; it's about what you as the receiver experience. 

tiko

---

Hey Scott. I agree. That's a good example and a fine poem. Bandit really is an awesome and somewhat hidden talent. Didn't know she was still posting there, or maybe that's from awhile back.

I think you're right about the simile/metaphor thing. Another aspect mentioned alot is that the abstract puts more emphasis on sound and sight than on meaning. Interesting concept. But the truth of it becomes more and more evident and undeniable.

the Bandita is an amazing poetess. very abstract but not inaccessable. absolutely prolific as well. good choice scott.

deh

Hmmm...o really.  Well I'll be doggone.  I think that actually makes sense.  Rather alluring.

Best go now.

Hey you guys, you editors out there, I hope I didn't offend you in my discussion question.  I'm not offended.  And I don't think anyone's done anything wrong or neglectful.  I just think this website, as a whole is not fond of abstract poetry, and I'd just like to learn more about it.

But heck, every website has a personality of its own.  I just wish I could tell you about a recent experience I had with one, but I won't for many reasons, and one of them is that I need to take responsibility for my own actions in the bullshit, and wagging my tongue is not very responsible.

I will say this, though.  The very week I felt insane, mentally deficient, out of place, lost, and God knows what else, is the same week my first poem was posted on the front page here at PC (I hope it's just my first).

And I don't mean to say that because I'm trying to say they were all wrong and I was all right, by any means.  I just mean that we never really know what powers are at work and where.

Was that a coincidence?  Maybe.  I don't really care.  All I know was it completely turned me around, and I was feeling really stupid and foolish and bad about myself and like maybe I was crazy or something and didn't know it.

But do I think PoetryCircle, and the editors are 'THE SHIT'?  You bet I do.

cherylanne

that would be FOND 

NOT

FOUND

 :-\

Wiki-definition of 'abstract poetry':

Abstract Poetry is poetry that utilizes ambiguity as a stylistic-aid; oftentimes, this style incorporates the use of fragments, missing pronouns, incorrect word usage, and intentional typographical errors that have specific metaphoric representation.

Rhyming is often preferential but usually borrows from the contemporary stanza structures of modern prosody. Poems of this nature often display a certain level of incoherency or arcane imagery, hence the title.

Abstract Poetry is essentially a less restrictive writing format than modern free-verse. In Abstract Poetry, one is not limited by the human fallibility of the English language. If one were to consider Abstract Poetry as a parallel to the physical medium of art, Abstract Poetry would a style indicative of Salvador Dalí.

---

Here's an example of a lesser known writer of the abstract, but it's definitely so:


And unlike most publications, this poem was placed center page --
something you can get away with regarding the abstract, I suppose.

Here's what the editor had to say about him:

He is a talented writer able to mesmerize the reader with illustrious language that is truly visionary and skilled.
He is alluring and has the potential to hook you with his every written word.

---

What I think:  To be honest, this poem is not an easy or enjoyable read for me.  But
I'm not sure if that's because it's abstract or science fiction.  Maybe both.  But I hope
you get the idea.

---

 

I'd just like to clarify that if I comment in a poem that it is using abstract nouns...I mean nouns which are things that cannot be accessed by the five senses...seeing, hearing, touching, smelling and tasting.

Nouns like
kindness, nature, flavour, friendship, hope.

as opposed to concrete nouns like
hug, mountain, whisky, smile, zip.

almost always concrete nouns are more effective than abstract. (though Billy Collins has a notable exception in "Allegory.")

Abstraction as in the use of surprising juxtaposition of words or unusual use of puncuation, is different.  done well it's excitng and edgy.  Done for the sake of being edgy and exciting it's often dull! I'll be back.

Ditto on everything Sue said above.
This Marquez poem, except for a few words I'd say - "angels to morph and become ghosts" - is simply dreadful, full of hackneyed language and ideas, abstract or not:


As a group, I think the best poetry making heavy use of abstract vocabulary are the great Spanish-language poets, and my favorite is probably is Rilke's First Elegy (translator here A.S. Kline):

Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the Angelic
Orders? And even if one were to suddenly
take me to its heart, I would vanish into its
stronger existence. For beauty is nothing but
the beginning of terror, that we are still able to bear,
and we revere it so, because it calmly disdains
to destroy us. Every Angel is terror.
And so I hold myself back and swallow the cry
of a darkened sobbing. Ah, who then can
we make use of? Not Angels: not men,
and the resourceful creatures see clearly
that we are not really at home
in the interpreted world. Perhaps there remains
some tree on a slope, that we can see
again each day: there remains to us yesterday’s street,
and the thinned-out loyalty of a habit
that liked us, and so stayed, and never departed.
Oh, and the night, the night, when the wind full of space
wears out our faces – whom would she not stay for,
the longed-for, gentle, disappointing one, whom the solitary heart
with difficulty stands before. Is she less heavy for lovers?
Ah, they only hide their fate between themselves.
Do you not know yet? Throw the emptiness out of your arms
to add to the spaces we breathe; maybe the birds
will feel the expansion of air, in more intimate flight.

-Tom

lol, this is a big ethereal quantum crapper. and this guy publishes?

I agree with sue here:

Abstraction as in the use of surprising juxtaposition of words or unusual use of puncuation, is different.  done well it's excitng and edgy.  Done for the sake of being edgy and exciting it's often dull! I'll be back.

it's hard to find the former but I keep practicing

deh

Wow that poem is beautiful, Tom.  Sometimes I think my understanding of abstract is skewed by not ever having read any like what you've posted here.  Yet at the same time, I'm sort of glad to hear you, and David, you too, say how you feel about Marquez' writing.  I couldn't even get though the first couple of lines, which is why I posted it--sort of an example of what some writers may think is 'bad' abstraction.  But, honestly, I wasn't sure what anyone would think.

Wanted to be fair though and post good stuff and not so good stuff.

But these great Spanish language poets you mention--I know nothing about them.  Do you think Spanish culture has something to do with that kind of beauty and depth?  And is this Rilke the Rilke I'm familiar with as a poet?  Can't remember the entire name, sorry.

The poem really comes alive for me at 'perhaps there remains' and all the rest worthy of memorization so it will never be overlooked or forgotten.  And the last line about 'throwing the emptiness out of your arms' is breathtaking.  In many ways.

Just for the simple reason that I'm really trying to get this stuff straight in my head, can you give me an example of the abstract in the poem you posted?  Or when you say a poem is abstract, do you mean the entire poem as a whole?  I can see how there might be a difference, and that it might be confusing.

Sue, regarding your comments, thanks for making your understanding even clearer.  Your comment 'done for the sake of being edgy and exciting is often dull' is exactly how I feel about poetry lately -- it's like the more you can see through the effort to write a poem, the less attractive the poem is.  And I think I read quotes like that all the time, like a great poem isn't great for what it says, but for what it doesn't say...stuff like that.

very cool and interesting thoughts.
cheryl



 

check out Jim Carroll, esp. The Book of Nods. for me it is what sue was saying. abstract grounded in reality.

deh

Don't know enough about Spanish culture to say much. Have heard that the Spanish language contents itself with far fewer words than English, but if true, is this cause or effect of writing tradition?
Maybe just us "practical", anti-intellectual Americans, shunning abstractions. Look at how our avant-garde musicians, writers, always have gone to go to Europe or Japan for an audience.
Yes, this is the Rilke. (Take comfort, his abstractions aren't always so compelling!) I see these lines, for instance, packed with abstract nouns and verts:

stronger existence. For beauty is nothing but
the beginning of terror, that we are still able to bear,
and we revere it so, because it calmly disdains
to destroy us. Every Angel is terror.

"destroy" as opposed to "saw in half," "revere" as opposed to "kiss its feet" etc.

When I think of Goethe, Schilling and other classical German poets, a lot of abstract language there too. German has as many words for different abstractions as the Eskimos do for snow!

--Tom

Wow this is a hot topic...2 folks posted while I was typing this! 

I think these two examples really show the difference about the abstract/concrete nouns...I'll highlight the abstract nouns.


Mmmm. that was an interesting exercise.  The Rilke has more emotive abstract nouns...terror, emptiness, difficulty.

Marquez ...survival, salvation, isolation, heaven, hell, soul.  These seem more distant?


and doesn't this...

Perhaps there remains
some tree on a slope, that we can see
again each day:

...really bring the poem to life...sooo concrete...

Sue, your comment about the 'perhaps' line is what I understand best -- yes, that is line is beautifully concrete, perfect timing.  But I don't seem to have the grasp you, Tom, and David have on absrtactions.

For instance, 'for beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror' which Tom cited.  Rilke'a going a long way around saying 'beauty can cause a person to be afraid' but I clearly understand it.  Yet there is a much greater contrast between that line and the 'perhaps there remains' line. 

Makes me wonder.  Are my senses just not keen to this stuff yet, or DEAR God!!  Is something wrong with MY BRAIN!!  ??

just felt myself gettin really serious there for a moment and had to break off into some ignorance -- breath of fresh air.

All for now.

(although this will bug me til I 'think' I've conquered it, lol)

I've always thought of abstract poetry as Pollack art....I see a denseness in his work, layer upon layer of motion...while others see spilled paint. It's all subjective. If the point of abstract poetry is to be vague or pointless than pointlessness has it's place too.  If it provokes thought or reaction it all works for me.

~donna

Hey Donna, didn't see your comment.  This is about the way I think of abstract things too -- they can mean something different to everyone.  It's when the artist gets all spoiled-brat-ish about it that it's not interesting anymore.

---

This is how a 5th grade teacher taught her students about abstracts.
It's fifth-gradish, but it helps me understand better.  Simple minds wanna know.

---

Abstract nouns poetry – Year 5

Context
The class were exploring the use of abstract nouns and wrote poems using an
abstract noun as its theme. They drafted and present their poems.

Organisation
The lesson was introduced as a whole class lesson, the children then worked
individually to create their draft versions of the poems.

Activity
They listened to various poems, which had been written by children in previous
years, being read by the teacher. Next they created their own versions in draft
format. The teacher then demonstrated to groups of children how to create a
text box using publisher and change font style, size and colour and save and
retrieve their work. The children then redrafted the poems onto the computer.
They were then shown how to add borders, clipart and background colours and
fill effects. The children then created final drafts and printed them.

Conclusion – Extension work
The children’s work was displayed in the classroom. The children were keen to
use the package again to develop other types of poem which they combined to
create a class poetry book.

Curriculum links
English
Pupils should be taught to express themselves confidently and clearly, evaluate
their own talk and reflect on how it varies, using appropriate methods. They
should be given opportunities to write in response to a wide range of stimuli
including poetry.
They should plan, draft and improve their work and
discuss and evaluate their own and others writing.

Curriculum link
Communicating and handling information - Pupils should be taught to:
Use software to communicate, share and exchange ideas
and information in a variety of forms. Use software to
organise and reorganise and analyse ideas and information.

Teacher comments
The children worked enthusiastically and were particularly keen on adding the
borders and fill effects. The teacher was particularly impressed with the overall
standard of the writing produced and the way in which the children quickly
developed the skills. Although the task took some time to complete she felt
it was well worth it.

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I'm not sure what you mean. I love abstract poetry, assuming it's intriguing. If abstract verse is not well represented here, I'd venture to say it has far less to do with editors than it does with (a) the fact that we don't have many poets on board who write verse that could be termed abstract and (b) the fact that those poets interested in abstract verse are a subset of poets in general. In other words, there aren't many out there.

If I'm wrong and there are many out there, please invite them on over!