Cheryl,

For me, Tom's comments put together are about participation.  It's not about the best lover or the worst lover; it's about what you as the receiver experience. 

tiko

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Hey Scott. I agree. That's a good example and a fine poem. Bandit really is an awesome and somewhat hidden talent. Didn't know she was still posting there, or maybe that's from awhile back.

I think you're right about the simile/metaphor thing. Another aspect mentioned alot is that the abstract puts more emphasis on sound and sight than on meaning. Interesting concept. But the truth of it becomes more and more evident and undeniable.

the Bandita is an amazing poetess. very abstract but not inaccessable. absolutely prolific as well. good choice scott.

deh

Hmmm...o really.  Well I'll be doggone.  I think that actually makes sense.  Rather alluring.

Best go now.

Hey you guys, you editors out there, I hope I didn't offend you in my discussion question.  I'm not offended.  And I don't think anyone's done anything wrong or neglectful.  I just think this website, as a whole is not fond of abstract poetry, and I'd just like to learn more about it.

But heck, every website has a personality of its own.  I just wish I could tell you about a recent experience I had with one, but I won't for many reasons, and one of them is that I need to take responsibility for my own actions in the bullshit, and wagging my tongue is not very responsible.

I will say this, though.  The very week I felt insane, mentally deficient, out of place, lost, and God knows what else, is the same week my first poem was posted on the front page here at PC (I hope it's just my first).

And I don't mean to say that because I'm trying to say they were all wrong and I was all right, by any means.  I just mean that we never really know what powers are at work and where.

Was that a coincidence?  Maybe.  I don't really care.  All I know was it completely turned me around, and I was feeling really stupid and foolish and bad about myself and like maybe I was crazy or something and didn't know it.

But do I think PoetryCircle, and the editors are 'THE SHIT'?  You bet I do.

cherylanne

that would be FOND 

NOT

FOUND

 :-\

Wiki-definition of 'abstract poetry':

Abstract Poetry is poetry that utilizes ambiguity as a stylistic-aid; oftentimes, this style incorporates the use of fragments, missing pronouns, incorrect word usage, and intentional typographical errors that have specific metaphoric representation.

Rhyming is often preferential but usually borrows from the contemporary stanza structures of modern prosody. Poems of this nature often display a certain level of incoherency or arcane imagery, hence the title.

Abstract Poetry is essentially a less restrictive writing format than modern free-verse. In Abstract Poetry, one is not limited by the human fallibility of the English language. If one were to consider Abstract Poetry as a parallel to the physical medium of art, Abstract Poetry would a style indicative of Salvador Dalí.

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Here's an example of a lesser known writer of the abstract, but it's definitely so:


And unlike most publications, this poem was placed center page --
something you can get away with regarding the abstract, I suppose.

Here's what the editor had to say about him:

He is a talented writer able to mesmerize the reader with illustrious language that is truly visionary and skilled.
He is alluring and has the potential to hook you with his every written word.

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What I think:  To be honest, this poem is not an easy or enjoyable read for me.  But
I'm not sure if that's because it's abstract or science fiction.  Maybe both.  But I hope
you get the idea.

---

 

I'd just like to clarify that if I comment in a poem that it is using abstract nouns...I mean nouns which are things that cannot be accessed by the five senses...seeing, hearing, touching, smelling and tasting.

Nouns like
kindness, nature, flavour, friendship, hope.

as opposed to concrete nouns like
hug, mountain, whisky, smile, zip.

almost always concrete nouns are more effective than abstract. (though Billy Collins has a notable exception in "Allegory.")

Abstraction as in the use of surprising juxtaposition of words or unusual use of puncuation, is different.  done well it's excitng and edgy.  Done for the sake of being edgy and exciting it's often dull! I'll be back.

Ditto on everything Sue said above.
This Marquez poem, except for a few words I'd say - "angels to morph and become ghosts" - is simply dreadful, full of hackneyed language and ideas, abstract or not:


As a group, I think the best poetry making heavy use of abstract vocabulary are the great Spanish-language poets, and my favorite is probably is Rilke's First Elegy (translator here A.S. Kline):

Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the Angelic
Orders? And even if one were to suddenly
take me to its heart, I would vanish into its
stronger existence. For beauty is nothing but
the beginning of terror, that we are still able to bear,
and we revere it so, because it calmly disdains
to destroy us. Every Angel is terror.
And so I hold myself back and swallow the cry
of a darkened sobbing. Ah, who then can
we make use of? Not Angels: not men,
and the resourceful creatures see clearly
that we are not really at home
in the interpreted world. Perhaps there remains
some tree on a slope, that we can see
again each day: there remains to us yesterday’s street,
and the thinned-out loyalty of a habit
that liked us, and so stayed, and never departed.
Oh, and the night, the night, when the wind full of space
wears out our faces – whom would she not stay for,
the longed-for, gentle, disappointing one, whom the solitary heart
with difficulty stands before. Is she less heavy for lovers?
Ah, they only hide their fate between themselves.
Do you not know yet? Throw the emptiness out of your arms
to add to the spaces we breathe; maybe the birds
will feel the expansion of air, in more intimate flight.

-Tom

lol, this is a big ethereal quantum crapper. and this guy publishes?

I agree with sue here:

Abstraction as in the use of surprising juxtaposition of words or unusual use of puncuation, is different.  done well it's excitng and edgy.  Done for the sake of being edgy and exciting it's often dull! I'll be back.

it's hard to find the former but I keep practicing

deh

Wow that poem is beautiful, Tom.  Sometimes I think my understanding of abstract is skewed by not ever having read any like what you've posted here.  Yet at the same time, I'm sort of glad to hear you, and David, you too, say how you feel about Marquez' writing.  I couldn't even get though the first couple of lines, which is why I posted it--sort of an example of what some writers may think is 'bad' abstraction.  But, honestly, I wasn't sure what anyone would think.

Wanted to be fair though and post good stuff and not so good stuff.

But these great Spanish language poets you mention--I know nothing about them.  Do you think Spanish culture has something to do with that kind of beauty and depth?  And is this Rilke the Rilke I'm familiar with as a poet?  Can't remember the entire name, sorry.

The poem really comes alive for me at 'perhaps there remains' and all the rest worthy of memorization so it will never be overlooked or forgotten.  And the last line about 'throwing the emptiness out of your arms' is breathtaking.  In many ways.

Just for the simple reason that I'm really trying to get this stuff straight in my head, can you give me an example of the abstract in the poem you posted?  Or when you say a poem is abstract, do you mean the entire poem as a whole?  I can see how there might be a difference, and that it might be confusing.

Sue, regarding your comments, thanks for making your understanding even clearer.  Your comment 'done for the sake of being edgy and exciting is often dull' is exactly how I feel about poetry lately -- it's like the more you can see through the effort to write a poem, the less attractive the poem is.  And I think I read quotes like that all the time, like a great poem isn't great for what it says, but for what it doesn't say...stuff like that.

very cool and interesting thoughts.
cheryl



 

check out Jim Carroll, esp. The Book of Nods. for me it is what sue was saying. abstract grounded in reality.

deh

Don't know enough about Spanish culture to say much. Have heard that the Spanish language contents itself with far fewer words than English, but if true, is this cause or effect of writing tradition?
Maybe just us "practical", anti-intellectual Americans, shunning abstractions. Look at how our avant-garde musicians, writers, always have gone to go to Europe or Japan for an audience.
Yes, this is the Rilke. (Take comfort, his abstractions aren't always so compelling!) I see these lines, for instance, packed with abstract nouns and verts:

stronger existence. For beauty is nothing but
the beginning of terror, that we are still able to bear,
and we revere it so, because it calmly disdains
to destroy us. Every Angel is terror.

"destroy" as opposed to "saw in half," "revere" as opposed to "kiss its feet" etc.

When I think of Goethe, Schilling and other classical German poets, a lot of abstract language there too. German has as many words for different abstractions as the Eskimos do for snow!

--Tom

Wow this is a hot topic...2 folks posted while I was typing this! 

I think these two examples really show the difference about the abstract/concrete nouns...I'll highlight the abstract nouns.


Mmmm. that was an interesting exercise.  The Rilke has more emotive abstract nouns...terror, emptiness, difficulty.

Marquez ...survival, salvation, isolation, heaven, hell, soul.  These seem more distant?


and doesn't this...

Perhaps there remains
some tree on a slope, that we can see
again each day:

...really bring the poem to life...sooo concrete...